Comments on: Presbymergents with children in worship? http://presbymergent.org/2008/09/02/presbymergents-with-children-in-worship/ Loyal Radicals Sat, 19 Jun 2010 14:21:12 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: Young Smith http://presbymergent.org/2008/09/02/presbymergents-with-children-in-worship/comment-page-1/#comment-2347 Young Smith Tue, 06 Jan 2009 03:07:29 +0000 http://presbymergent.org/?p=280#comment-2347 I remember getting some excellent naps in my moms lap during church as a child. We are dealing with this issue in our church now (including where should the Youth sit? - which could be a blog itslelf - with parents or together - note, many youth do not have parents at church with them) - so along the same lines, what do you do with the kids? I love involving kids (and youth) in worship - this is imperative! For the kids that are just being taught how to be "quiet" for an hour there should be other alternatives. One way I experienced - a long musical worship time with everyone together (babies could be there too) - when the music ended kids left following banners and returned when the adult sermon ended to participate in communion, etc. I guess there just needs to be options for different kids: participation (active), sitting quietly(passive), leaving adult worship for a "fun" kids sermon (same message preseted differently) - but all with as much emphasis on worhsiping together as possible while still using the most effective "methods" possible. I remember getting some excellent naps in my moms lap during church as a child. We are dealing with this issue in our church now (including where should the Youth sit? – which could be a blog itslelf – with parents or together – note, many youth do not have parents at church with them) – so along the same lines, what do you do with the kids? I love involving kids (and youth) in worship – this is imperative! For the kids that are just being taught how to be “quiet” for an hour there should be other alternatives. One way I experienced – a long musical worship time with everyone together (babies could be there too) – when the music ended kids left following banners and returned when the adult sermon ended to participate in communion, etc. I guess there just needs to be options for different kids: participation (active), sitting quietly(passive), leaving adult worship for a “fun” kids sermon (same message preseted differently) – but all with as much emphasis on worhsiping together as possible while still using the most effective “methods” possible.

]]> By: Lisa Rzepka http://presbymergent.org/2008/09/02/presbymergents-with-children-in-worship/comment-page-1/#comment-2122 Lisa Rzepka Wed, 17 Sep 2008 13:01:15 +0000 http://presbymergent.org/?p=280#comment-2122 I agree - great thoughts and ideas. As I have recently moved to my second call, and knowing the rule of thumb that my congregation believes in, "Don't change anything for the first year." I was really dismayed that children's Sunday school ran concurrently with worship. My previous call was at a church that, when I came on staff, was in the midst of transitioning from concurrent SS to children 2nd grade and above remaining in worship. It was hard. People left the church over the decision. Some wanted their children 'entertained'. Others stuck it out but let their children 'escape' to 'help' downstairs with the little ones. We really had preteens roaming the church. In my new church the Children's sermon usually followed the confession - about the third item of worship! I quietly just moved that to between the Scripture readings so that at least the children were hearing Scripture with us. We have just implemented a model of SS we call CHildren's Worship and Arts. Children 6th grade and younger worship with the entire congregation for approx. the first half of the service. They have a worship space they move to for a more interactive worship experience for them. The format is still worship: singing hymns, hearing another Scripture story, reflection on the scripture including small, age appropriate group reflection, prayer, offering, hymn and benediction. The first Sunday of the month everyone worships together the entire time. I can't say which model - staying vs. leaving for age appropriate reflection, is better. Only God knows and time will tell. I'm comfortable with either model. I agree – great thoughts and ideas. As I have recently moved to my second call, and knowing the rule of thumb that my congregation believes in, “Don’t change anything for the first year.” I was really dismayed that children’s Sunday school ran concurrently with worship. My previous call was at a church that, when I came on staff, was in the midst of transitioning from concurrent SS to children 2nd grade and above remaining in worship. It was hard. People left the church over the decision. Some wanted their children ‘entertained’. Others stuck it out but let their children ‘escape’ to ‘help’ downstairs with the little ones. We really had preteens roaming the church.

In my new church the Children’s sermon usually followed the confession – about the third item of worship! I quietly just moved that to between the Scripture readings so that at least the children were hearing Scripture with us. We have just implemented a model of SS we call CHildren’s Worship and Arts. Children 6th grade and younger worship with the entire congregation for approx. the first half of the service. They have a worship space they move to for a more interactive worship experience for them. The format is still worship: singing hymns, hearing another Scripture story, reflection on the scripture including small, age appropriate group reflection, prayer, offering, hymn and benediction.

The first Sunday of the month everyone worships together the entire time. I can’t say which model – staying vs. leaving for age appropriate reflection, is better. Only God knows and time will tell. I’m comfortable with either model.

]]> By: Carol Howard Merritt http://presbymergent.org/2008/09/02/presbymergents-with-children-in-worship/comment-page-1/#comment-2121 Carol Howard Merritt Tue, 16 Sep 2008 23:19:35 +0000 http://presbymergent.org/?p=280#comment-2121 Wow. Great ideas here. Thanks again. Wow. Great ideas here. Thanks again.

]]> By: casey thompson http://presbymergent.org/2008/09/02/presbymergents-with-children-in-worship/comment-page-1/#comment-2110 casey thompson Mon, 08 Sep 2008 18:44:01 +0000 http://presbymergent.org/?p=280#comment-2110 Occasionally, we have children ask four questions as part of the table liturgy as was wondered about above. the questions we use are: #1. Why do we give thanks and praise before this table (we give thanks and praise for God's work of creation, liberation and salvation. The Lord be with you... and into the great prayer). #2 (after the great prayer): Why do we eat bread at this table? (On the night he was betrayed...) #3: Why do we drink from the cup at this table? (In the same manner, after supper, he took the cup...) #4: What do we remember at this table? (We remember God's love for us, Christ's death and resurrection for us, and the Spirit's care for us. The gifts of God for the people of God.) During baptisms of small children, the children also make vows in a similar way that the 'adult' congregation does (I've run across this in several congregations actually). The vows are: Do you promise to be a friend to little ___________? If he/she needs directions, will you show him/her the way? If he/she falls down, will you help pick him/her up? Will you play with him/her, and tell him/her the stories of Jesus? Peace, Casey Occasionally, we have children ask four questions as part of the table liturgy as was wondered about above.

the questions we use are: #1. Why do we give thanks and praise before this table (we give thanks and praise for God’s work of creation, liberation and salvation. The Lord be with you… and into the great prayer).

#2 (after the great prayer): Why do we eat bread at this table? (On the night he was betrayed…)

#3: Why do we drink from the cup at this table? (In the same manner, after supper, he took the cup…)

#4: What do we remember at this table? (We remember God’s love for us, Christ’s death and resurrection for us, and the Spirit’s care for us. The gifts of God for the people of God.)

During baptisms of small children, the children also make vows in a similar way that the ‘adult’ congregation does (I’ve run across this in several congregations actually). The vows are:

Do you promise to be a friend to little ___________?
If he/she needs directions, will you show him/her the way?
If he/she falls down, will you help pick him/her up?
Will you play with him/her, and tell him/her the stories of Jesus?

Peace,
Casey

]]> By: Mark http://presbymergent.org/2008/09/02/presbymergents-with-children-in-worship/comment-page-1/#comment-2109 Mark Mon, 08 Sep 2008 18:41:39 +0000 http://presbymergent.org/?p=280#comment-2109 I understand themadlibs' frustration with too much education in worship. It is, after all, a worship *service* in which we are called upon to serve God. At the same time, we've got to face a reality in many congregations: the majority of congregants are not attending educational events. Most of my sermons are bible studies because most of my parishioners aren't studying the Bible. It doesn't matter what age the congregants are; if they're not learning the biblical stories and the basics of discipleship, they're not equipped to serve God. I'm reminded of Nehemiah 8, in which Levites dispersed throughout the congregation during worship in order to help the people understand what they were hearing as the Torah was read. I understand themadlibs’ frustration with too much education in worship. It is, after all, a worship *service* in which we are called upon to serve God.

At the same time, we’ve got to face a reality in many congregations: the majority of congregants are not attending educational events. Most of my sermons are bible studies because most of my parishioners aren’t studying the Bible. It doesn’t matter what age the congregants are; if they’re not learning the biblical stories and the basics of discipleship, they’re not equipped to serve God. I’m reminded of Nehemiah 8, in which Levites dispersed throughout the congregation during worship in order to help the people understand what they were hearing as the Torah was read.

]]> By: Heather W. Reichgott http://presbymergent.org/2008/09/02/presbymergents-with-children-in-worship/comment-page-1/#comment-2101 Heather W. Reichgott Sun, 07 Sep 2008 03:56:53 +0000 http://presbymergent.org/?p=280#comment-2101 Full disclosure: I've not (yet) been able to crack the mold of children's sermon/Sunday school. I've messed with it some. Here are some things I have done with success. - The occasional sermon as children's sermon. 20 minutes, multisensory, puppets and video clips and art and whatnot are all okay. Kids right up close to the preacher. - Children participate in sacraments, always. Sunday school ends early when there is communion, so kids can participate. Baptisms are the children's sermon for that day, and the kids come up and sit right at the font. - Children create things that are essential in the "adult" service, for example, banners, or large dove puppets on Pentecost. - "Quiet activity" supply basket provided for kids to help them sit more easily in worship with parents, even if the service/sermon fails to engage them. Activities related to the Scripture or sermon are ideal, but that's harder to do every week. Here are things I've seen done with great success in larger churches: - Each kid has an adult who is not their parent to be their worship buddy. Kid sits with worship buddy during worship. Kid typically behaves better for someone who isn't her parent, anyway. Parents enjoy worship with relief. - More "memorizable" music in worship--no hymnals or screens needed for at least a proportion of the music in the service. This helps kids internalize music well enough to sing it before they're able to follow printed words fast enough to follow along that way. - Area in front or front-side corner of the sanctuary reserved for kids to dance during praise songs. About adults preferring the children's sermon to the "adult" sermon: I wonder how we can (a) make adult sermons more interesting, and (b) help bring adults along (educationally) to the point where they *can* listen to a 20-minute sermon and be edified by it. Full disclosure: I’ve not (yet) been able to crack the mold of children’s sermon/Sunday school. I’ve messed with it some.

Here are some things I have done with success.
- The occasional sermon as children’s sermon. 20 minutes, multisensory, puppets and video clips and art and whatnot are all okay. Kids right up close to the preacher.
- Children participate in sacraments, always. Sunday school ends early when there is communion, so kids can participate. Baptisms are the children’s sermon for that day, and the kids come up and sit right at the font.
- Children create things that are essential in the “adult” service, for example, banners, or large dove puppets on Pentecost.
- “Quiet activity” supply basket provided for kids to help them sit more easily in worship with parents, even if the service/sermon fails to engage them. Activities related to the Scripture or sermon are ideal, but that’s harder to do every week.

Here are things I’ve seen done with great success in larger churches:
- Each kid has an adult who is not their parent to be their worship buddy. Kid sits with worship buddy during worship. Kid typically behaves better for someone who isn’t her parent, anyway. Parents enjoy worship with relief.
- More “memorizable” music in worship–no hymnals or screens needed for at least a proportion of the music in the service. This helps kids internalize music well enough to sing it before they’re able to follow printed words fast enough to follow along that way.
- Area in front or front-side corner of the sanctuary reserved for kids to dance during praise songs.

About adults preferring the children’s sermon to the “adult” sermon: I wonder how we can (a) make adult sermons more interesting, and (b) help bring adults along (educationally) to the point where they *can* listen to a 20-minute sermon and be edified by it.

]]> By: themadlibs http://presbymergent.org/2008/09/02/presbymergents-with-children-in-worship/comment-page-1/#comment-2060 themadlibs Fri, 05 Sep 2008 07:26:31 +0000 http://presbymergent.org/?p=280#comment-2060 It seems that part of the problem is how we're defining church and worship - though maybe I'm just walking completely away from the Reformed understanding of worship... If we agree that children and parents don't learn the same way developmentally, and that Church is not merely 1 hour on Sunday mornings, but that worship is an essential to being a part of the body, then why must children be in the service? What are you calling church? Worship or discipleship? Why are we assuming that the only learning/discipleship that happens for the children in any sort of a spiritually formative manner is from 10:15-10:20 when the ordained pastor, youth leader, or person who was nominated to lead the children's sermon this week is speaking? What happened to parents and children actually debriefing and going further into the conversation of a sermon every week? What happened to Church happening outside the building? And what are we defining as emergent here? However, the bigger question in my mind is going back to the heart of Reformed worship as I mentioned: is it not glorifying G-d alone? Are we supposed to be learning and teaching one another as our primary worry in worship? Or are we supposed to be exalting G-d as the Creator, Redeemer and Sustainer? If such is the case, why do we not want children to experience that intergenerationally? It's when we put the entire focus of worship upon the Christian education that we get lost in these questions, in my humble opinion. But I don't know. Maybe i've lost my my seminary-eyed rocker... It seems that part of the problem is how we’re defining church and worship – though maybe I’m just walking completely away from the Reformed understanding of worship…

If we agree that children and parents don’t learn the same way developmentally, and that Church is not merely 1 hour on Sunday mornings, but that worship is an essential to being a part of the body, then why must children be in the service? What are you calling church? Worship or discipleship? Why are we assuming that the only learning/discipleship that happens for the children in any sort of a spiritually formative manner is from 10:15-10:20 when the ordained pastor, youth leader, or person who was nominated to lead the children’s sermon this week is speaking? What happened to parents and children actually debriefing and going further into the conversation of a sermon every week? What happened to Church happening outside the building? And what are we defining as emergent here?

However, the bigger question in my mind is going back to the heart of Reformed worship as I mentioned: is it not glorifying G-d alone? Are we supposed to be learning and teaching one another as our primary worry in worship? Or are we supposed to be exalting G-d as the Creator, Redeemer and Sustainer? If such is the case, why do we not want children to experience that intergenerationally?

It’s when we put the entire focus of worship upon the Christian education that we get lost in these questions, in my humble opinion. But I don’t know. Maybe i’ve lost my my seminary-eyed rocker…

]]> By: Stushie http://presbymergent.org/2008/09/02/presbymergents-with-children-in-worship/comment-page-1/#comment-2056 Stushie Fri, 05 Sep 2008 02:52:59 +0000 http://presbymergent.org/?p=280#comment-2056 At our church, I invite both the moms and dads to come down with their kids and call it a family sermon. The front of our sanctuary is filled with about 30 kids of all ages up to 5th grade with their parents sitting beside them. After the talk, I ask the families to repeat a prayer with me - it's wonderful and the rest of the congregation just love to see all the families together. Try it for a month or so and you'll see, feel, and know a difference! it's also a great witness to new families who visit the congregation for the first time! www.erinpresbyterian.org At our church, I invite both the moms and dads to come down with their kids and call it a family sermon. The front of our sanctuary is filled with about 30 kids of all ages up to 5th grade with their parents sitting beside them. After the talk, I ask the families to repeat a prayer with me – it’s wonderful and the rest of the congregation just love to see all the families together.

Try it for a month or so and you’ll see, feel, and know a difference! it’s also a great witness to new families who visit the congregation for the first time!

http://www.erinpresbyterian.org

]]> By: Tom Robinson http://presbymergent.org/2008/09/02/presbymergents-with-children-in-worship/comment-page-1/#comment-2055 Tom Robinson Thu, 04 Sep 2008 21:14:21 +0000 http://presbymergent.org/?p=280#comment-2055 Thanks Jan - we have done that on occasion but not nearly enough. Your idea is a great way for children to be involved. This has also brought up something else, and maybe it's just my own 'bone to pick.' When we have a children's sermon here, I don't have the children come up to face the congregation so they can "be on display." I have them sit on the floor and look at me, or whoever is leading the children's sermon. Let us have the pressure. I also don't think we need to embarass the kids by coaxing them into saying something silly and then repeat it to the congregation. That's a good way to keep them from coming back. Who wants to be laughed at? Thanks Jan – we have done that on occasion but not nearly enough. Your idea is a great way for children to be involved. This has also brought up something else, and maybe it’s just my own ‘bone to pick.’ When we have a children’s sermon here, I don’t have the children come up to face the congregation so they can “be on display.” I have them sit on the floor and look at me, or whoever is leading the children’s sermon. Let us have the pressure.

I also don’t think we need to embarass the kids by coaxing them into saying something silly and then repeat it to the congregation. That’s a good way to keep them from coming back. Who wants to be laughed at?

]]> By: Jan http://presbymergent.org/2008/09/02/presbymergents-with-children-in-worship/comment-page-1/#comment-2054 Jan Thu, 04 Sep 2008 01:16:19 +0000 http://presbymergent.org/?p=280#comment-2054 Re: Tom Robinson's comment We now ask the parents of babies to be baptized to choose an older child in the church who will be "the water bearer." That child pours the water during one of the prayers. It's very special for that child because she/he now sees the newly baptized as her/his special little friend. I think it's possible to "be emergent" (whatever that means) with a children's sermon. It's not about "kids saying the darndest things." It's about having a relationship with them before they come forward for this part of worship. It's about taking them seriously and raising honest questions. It's not about magic tricks or an entertaining interlude or cuteness. It's about taking their spiritual lives seriously. Re: Tom Robinson’s comment
We now ask the parents of babies to be baptized to choose an older child in the church who will be “the water bearer.” That child pours the water during one of the prayers. It’s very special for that child because she/he now sees the newly baptized as her/his special little friend.

I think it’s possible to “be emergent” (whatever that means) with a children’s sermon. It’s not about “kids saying the darndest things.” It’s about having a relationship with them before they come forward for this part of worship. It’s about taking them seriously and raising honest questions.

It’s not about magic tricks or an entertaining interlude or cuteness. It’s about taking their spiritual lives seriously.

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