Comments on: presbymergent at the 218th General Assembly

By: Tom

Tom — Sun, 06 Jul 2008 04:20:17 +0000

Bruce, I just logged into this blog string (or however it is defined) so I wasn’t aware of your thoughts expressed earlier. Thanks for sharing the link.

I speak as a pastor and scholar, single-again, caucasian, father of an 18-year old daughter, good looking, physically fit, ragamuffin in his early forties who has at last calmed down from my early rantings. I admit that at one time I despised people in our denomination who were ripping it apart (my “then” language) over the issue of sexuality. Of course, now I’m single-again, and have been for ten years. It’s not only homosexual and lesbian people who struggle with our ordination standard, good ole’ 6b. That reminds me of a joke I learned while doing my Ph.D. among the great Jesuits at Loyola, but that’s for another time.

To me the issue isn’t about sex. It’s about my personal submission and obedience to scripture’s call to holiness. I don’t say this as a liberal or evangelical, since I navigate both worlds. Sure it quite frankly sucks at times, and it’s VERY difficult, but you know what? It’s the path I trust that in God’s wisdom the Holy Spirit inspired someone to write. Even when I blow it, I still maintain that God’s way is the way and I say I’m wrong. If it is on that issue we’re disagreeing can we agree to disagree? There’s the rub, Bruce, and while I can do that in an academic setting (in fact I encourage it among my graduate students) the evidence tells me it doesn’t work in the church over foundational philosophies.

Bruce, I hope you visit Shepards & Lapsley (oh you now you have to come to the Deep South). Now it’s off to bed. Tomorrow’s sermon time! By the way, Bruce, I do what you do in one of our services. The dialogue style is great for some, not for all, but it has been great to do.

By: Tom

Tom — Sun, 06 Jul 2008 03:44:28 +0000

Heather, wherever there is anger there is fear over, among other things, the lack of control or the loss of it. In that regard, there is control on either side of the debate. One side asserts that control comes from the authority of ancient text. Another side asserts that control comes from the authority of western postmodern relativity. Which side is correct? Perhaps in some ways both are…now isn’t that a postmodern notion? Hermeneutics of suspicion (Schüsler Fiorenza, Segovia) dominates the current debate, and I don’t see an end to it in the short term; certainly not by GA219! What this means is simple: all things are suspect, all things receive their due challenge in the debate of idea and ideology, which this most certainly is.

Do you really want to make headway? Begin this way: ask simply what someone means by their use of a word. Perhaps a question, “Can you explain what you mean by ‘discipleship?’” or “evangelism?” or “liberal?” or “conservative?” may help. This was one of the goals of PUP, and it’s rather interesting to me how quickly that critical aspect of dialogue has disappeared: mutual understanding of terms.

Then, once you have the definition, their context, that will help you articulate your point, and me mine, in a way that is both respectful and conscientious. Sure, it’s a helluva lotta work, but we’ve gone so far down the path of destructive disunity that it’s going to require so much work to get back on track and really do the John 17 thing.

Peace all…Tom

By: Heather W. Reichgott

Heather W. Reichgott — Sat, 05 Jul 2008 19:00:44 +0000

Tom is onto something serious regarding differing views of authority.
We can only “agree to disagree” if no one is trying to control anyone else. Agreeing to disagree requires letting go of control over whether others will do what you want, or not.
But the conservative side of the debate over sexuality IS trying to control what people do with their sexuality–whereas the liberal side cares more about teaching people to make their own wise and faithful decisions.
Sometimes I wonder if this is more about control than about sexuality itself.

By: Bruce Reyes-Chow

Bruce Reyes-Chow — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 15:20:13 +0000

Tom – Yep, and in some places PUP dialogue took place. There were, of course, varying levels of success. I think you are asking the questions that many of us are asking, on the issue of biblical interpretation and homosexuality, can we agree to disagree.

I posted something about this on my mod blog during the “campaign” if you want to check out the comments.

http://www.mod.reyes-chow.com/2008/05/can-we-agree-to.html

By: Tom

Tom — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 14:41:57 +0000

Bruce, the purpose of PUP was to attempt a forum for dialogue. I’m not certain that it works, since interestingly as soon as the GAPJC upheld the constitutional standard with respect to ordination one of the key authors of PUP in John Knox Presbytery immediately tried to go around the process and worked instead to bring a proposal to GA this year to undo the limitation.

In light of this and other discussions I hear on blogs and saw at GA and have with my accountability group, the philosophical question I ask is this: Can people with distinct ideologies regarding authority dialogue across their ideologies? I think you discovered in GA218 that at best its difficult. Can a denomination sustain unity with two widely disparate ideologies about authority present? If so, how? Are we two houses under one roof, at least from an ideological perspective? I think these are the question that PFR is going to be asking itself now, and it should be interesting to see the outcome at GA219.

So, that’s a question I’m proposing for blogs, who knows if it will go anywhere.

By: Bruce Reyes-Chow

Bruce Reyes-Chow — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 19:39:10 +0000

Susan – GREAT response and good to keep at the center. If we can find a way forward together it certainly will only be through the Spirit. Good thing. And so much of that will be because folks are willing to sit down and actually hear one another. Good stuff. Bruce

By: Susan Phillips

Susan Phillips — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 16:58:36 +0000

Hey Bruce,
Actually, i spent an hour chatting at the airport on sat morning with a 50-something gordon-conwell grad from the theo issues committee with whom i disagreed on most things. we were each able to affirm that we disagree over heart-felt, scripture-informed, reformed theo-based concerns. we were also able to share our belief that G-d is at work reconciling us as the body of Christ, that we don’t know what that will look like or how it will happen. we were able to affirm our sense of blessing to have one another as sister / brother in faith. it was good. i felt the Spirit at work, binding us together.

i’m sure lots of folks don’t feel that way. the syrian-american clp i talked to on the plane out of san jose said she cried for 2 days after the G-6 vote. as she talked about peacemaking in the middle east and kept saying, “they’re just people — talk to them — make peace.” after lengthy quiet faithful concerned conversation about our church, and while she spoke on needing to call a special Session meeting to convey the “bad” news, i suggested that maybe opposing sides in our denomination needed to consider that “they’re just people — talk to them — make peace.”

may we be patient as G-d works out our redemption and reconciliation and teaches us how to love each other. of course it is easier to be patient when it feels like things are going your way. lots of folks have been patient with the PCUSA for years as we try to follow the holy call on our consciences.

may we in the mean time remember that we all cherish scripture, we all live in G-d’s mercy, we all try to be disciples of Jesus, we all are accompanied by the Spirit.

sorry it’s so long, but you asked.
deep peace,
Susan

By: Heather W. Reichgott

Heather W. Reichgott — Wed, 02 Jul 2008 18:28:30 +0000

Hi Presbymergent people!
Thanks for the good conversations at GA. Hope we get to have more conversations about stuff. And thanks Karen for your presence in prayer (and that fast but furious introduction to Southern New England pby.)
cheers
Heather W. Reichgott

By: Bruce Reyes-Chow

Bruce Reyes-Chow — Wed, 02 Jul 2008 13:04:50 +0000

Susan – Would be interesting to see what they thought about the GA experience post-event.

By: Susan Phillips

Susan Phillips — Wed, 02 Jul 2008 00:36:25 +0000

i don’t know if they know what they’ve done, but it is definitely time.

my self described “conservative” GA roommate came into plenary ahead of the mod vote (having attended the Outlook dinner), saying “1 candidate is much stronger than the others.” I, wincing slightly, asked, “which one?” “Well, Bruce Reyes-Chow.” Way to go Bruce!

I loved the transformational moments I witnessed as hearts were softened and eyes opened. G-d is good!