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	<title>Comments on: What is the deal with Chastity?</title>
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	<description>Loyal Radicals</description>
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		<title>By: Sarah</title>
		<link>http://presbymergent.org/2008/03/10/what-is-the-deal-with-chastity/comment-page-1/#comment-1549</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Mar 2008 12:57:28 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Thank you everyone for your comments!  This has been an awesome discussion!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you everyone for your comments!  This has been an awesome discussion!</p>
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		<title>By: Kathryn Bell</title>
		<link>http://presbymergent.org/2008/03/10/what-is-the-deal-with-chastity/comment-page-1/#comment-1548</link>
		<dc:creator>Kathryn Bell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Mar 2008 05:01:17 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>yes, i wonder where we would be without the help of the victorians... or the puritan theologians for that matter.  and to think that in the renaissance showing more boobage (and even more!) indicated younger and more pure - thusly the more covered the more married and sexually active.  and which way of dressing is more chaste, hmm?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>yes, i wonder where we would be without the help of the victorians&#8230; or the puritan theologians for that matter.  and to think that in the renaissance showing more boobage (and even more!) indicated younger and more pure &#8211; thusly the more covered the more married and sexually active.  and which way of dressing is more chaste, hmm?</p>
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		<title>By: Andy</title>
		<link>http://presbymergent.org/2008/03/10/what-is-the-deal-with-chastity/comment-page-1/#comment-1541</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Mar 2008 04:48:38 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>True, the traditional understanding of chastity may indeed by &quot;culture bound.&quot;  It may just be something  &quot;read back into the text,&quot; and the Bible really does allow for extra-marital sex.  We should always be ready to interrogate cultural assumptions.  On the other hand, Christians in many different cultures (Middle Eastern, African, European) and many different time periods (ancient, medieval, modern) seem to have been in general agreement about what the Bible teaches about sex and what terms like &quot;chastity&quot; and &quot;fidelity&quot; meant.  So, it might just be that we are the ones whose interpretations are overly culture-bound, perhaps we are the ones reading back our cultural preferences onto the text and tradition.  It should give us pause, I think, that no one seemed to wonder what &quot;chastity&quot; meant until extra-marital sex became common and largely socially acceptable.

The &quot;culturally-bound&quot; argument definitely cuts both ways.  It also (especially?) applies to the North American/European enlightenment culture, which currently seems to be the only culture going that is so convinced that that traditional teachings on sexuality are so inadequate.  We should always be ready to interrogate cultural assumptions--especially our own.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>True, the traditional understanding of chastity may indeed by &#8220;culture bound.&#8221;  It may just be something  &#8220;read back into the text,&#8221; and the Bible really does allow for extra-marital sex.  We should always be ready to interrogate cultural assumptions.  On the other hand, Christians in many different cultures (Middle Eastern, African, European) and many different time periods (ancient, medieval, modern) seem to have been in general agreement about what the Bible teaches about sex and what terms like &#8220;chastity&#8221; and &#8220;fidelity&#8221; meant.  So, it might just be that we are the ones whose interpretations are overly culture-bound, perhaps we are the ones reading back our cultural preferences onto the text and tradition.  It should give us pause, I think, that no one seemed to wonder what &#8220;chastity&#8221; meant until extra-marital sex became common and largely socially acceptable.</p>
<p>The &#8220;culturally-bound&#8221; argument definitely cuts both ways.  It also (especially?) applies to the North American/European enlightenment culture, which currently seems to be the only culture going that is so convinced that that traditional teachings on sexuality are so inadequate.  We should always be ready to interrogate cultural assumptions&#8211;especially our own.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Capron</title>
		<link>http://presbymergent.org/2008/03/10/what-is-the-deal-with-chastity/comment-page-1/#comment-1540</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Capron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Mar 2008 00:40:10 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Ah Heather, you &quot;see my Greek and raise me a Hebrew!&quot;  This is an old argument as the quote I dropped at the bottom shows.  

The other bit that should be introduced on the OT side is that women were supposed to refrain from sex until marriage (virginity).  An acknowledgment of the inequality of patriarchy could lead you to saying that (1) to be fair men should also or to (2) saying that women need not.  The early church picked #1.  

No matter where you come down on the liguistic arguments, you must admit that the early church developed a strong ethic of chastity/celibacy outside of marriage and has been fairly consistant about it for many centuries.  I personally think that arguments that the context has changed (i.e. no marriage until 30, or many cohabitation arrangments being common law marriages) could be way more persuasive than claiming that the church has been flat out wrong for 1800 years.  Tradition should never get the final word; but it definitely deserves the first word.  

Mike

START REALLY IMPRESSIVE SOUNDING ACADEMIC QUOTE...
πορνεία should be understood as a general term including all sorts of sexual impurities). It denotes any kind of illegitimate sexual intercourse (cf. BAG, 693; Hauck/Schulz, TDNT 6, 579–95; Reisser, NIDNTT 1, 497–501; this however has been questioned by B. Malina, “Does Porneia Mean Fornication?” NovT 14 [1972] 10–17; note, however, J. Jensen, “Does Porneia Mean Fornication? A Critique of Bruce Malina.” NovT 20 [1978]: 161–84, who argues that the term and its cognates in the NT describe wanton sexual behavior including fornication) and the word-group was employed in the LXX (rendering the Hebrew zānâh) to denote unchastity, harlotry, prostitution and fornication (Gen 34:31, 38:15; Lev 19:29; Deut 22:21). In later rabbinic literature, zenût. (= πορνεία) was understood as including not only prostitution and any kind of extramarital sexual intercourse (&amp;˒Abot; 2:8) but also all marriages between relatives forbidden by rabbinic law (cf. Str-B 2, 729, 730). Incest (Test Rub 1:6; Test Jud 13:6; cf. Lev 18:6–18) and all kinds of unnatural sexual intercourse (e.g. Test Ben 9:1) were regarded as fornication (πορνεία). One who surrenders to it indicates ultimately that he has broken with God (Wisd 14:27, 28; cf. Reisser, NIDNTT 1, 499).

O&#039;Brien, P. T. (2002). Vol. 44: Word Biblical Commentary  : Colossians-Philemon. Word Biblical Commentary (181). Dallas: Word, Incorporated.
(NovT = the journal &#039;Novum testamentum&#039;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah Heather, you &#8220;see my Greek and raise me a Hebrew!&#8221;  This is an old argument as the quote I dropped at the bottom shows.  </p>
<p>The other bit that should be introduced on the OT side is that women were supposed to refrain from sex until marriage (virginity).  An acknowledgment of the inequality of patriarchy could lead you to saying that (1) to be fair men should also or to (2) saying that women need not.  The early church picked #1.  </p>
<p>No matter where you come down on the liguistic arguments, you must admit that the early church developed a strong ethic of chastity/celibacy outside of marriage and has been fairly consistant about it for many centuries.  I personally think that arguments that the context has changed (i.e. no marriage until 30, or many cohabitation arrangments being common law marriages) could be way more persuasive than claiming that the church has been flat out wrong for 1800 years.  Tradition should never get the final word; but it definitely deserves the first word.  </p>
<p>Mike</p>
<p>START REALLY IMPRESSIVE SOUNDING ACADEMIC QUOTE&#8230;<br />
πορνεία should be understood as a general term including all sorts of sexual impurities). It denotes any kind of illegitimate sexual intercourse (cf. BAG, 693; Hauck/Schulz, TDNT 6, 579–95; Reisser, NIDNTT 1, 497–501; this however has been questioned by B. Malina, “Does Porneia Mean Fornication?” NovT 14 [1972] 10–17; note, however, J. Jensen, “Does Porneia Mean Fornication? A Critique of Bruce Malina.” NovT 20 [1978]: 161–84, who argues that the term and its cognates in the NT describe wanton sexual behavior including fornication) and the word-group was employed in the LXX (rendering the Hebrew zānâh) to denote unchastity, harlotry, prostitution and fornication (Gen 34:31, 38:15; Lev 19:29; Deut 22:21). In later rabbinic literature, zenût. (= πορνεία) was understood as including not only prostitution and any kind of extramarital sexual intercourse (&amp;˒Abot; 2:8) but also all marriages between relatives forbidden by rabbinic law (cf. Str-B 2, 729, 730). Incest (Test Rub 1:6; Test Jud 13:6; cf. Lev 18:6–18) and all kinds of unnatural sexual intercourse (e.g. Test Ben 9:1) were regarded as fornication (πορνεία). One who surrenders to it indicates ultimately that he has broken with God (Wisd 14:27, 28; cf. Reisser, NIDNTT 1, 499).</p>
<p>O&#8217;Brien, P. T. (2002). Vol. 44: Word Biblical Commentary  : Colossians-Philemon. Word Biblical Commentary (181). Dallas: Word, Incorporated.<br />
(NovT = the journal &#8216;Novum testamentum&#8217;)</p>
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		<title>By: Sarah</title>
		<link>http://presbymergent.org/2008/03/10/what-is-the-deal-with-chastity/comment-page-1/#comment-1539</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Mar 2008 21:41:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://presbymergent.org/2008/03/10/what-is-the-deal-with-chastity/#comment-1539</guid>
		<description>preach it heather!!!!

BTW to Mike re: winner&#039;s book-- good suggestion for sure; karen sloan recommended it to me and I have been perusing it, but I will mention that I think she goes a bit far at some points.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>preach it heather!!!!</p>
<p>BTW to Mike re: winner&#8217;s book&#8211; good suggestion for sure; karen sloan recommended it to me and I have been perusing it, but I will mention that I think she goes a bit far at some points.</p>
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		<title>By: Heather W. Reichgott</title>
		<link>http://presbymergent.org/2008/03/10/what-is-the-deal-with-chastity/comment-page-1/#comment-1538</link>
		<dc:creator>Heather W. Reichgott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Mar 2008 20:53:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://presbymergent.org/2008/03/10/what-is-the-deal-with-chastity/#comment-1538</guid>
		<description>On &lt;i&gt;porneia&lt;/i&gt;--that looks like too many assumptions there.

Defining &quot;fornication&quot; as &quot;sex outside marriage&quot; is a modern phenomenon.  Having a problem with &lt;i&gt;men&lt;/i&gt; having sex outside marriage (as long as it isn&#039;t with someone else&#039;s spouse or with a prostitute) is also a modern phenomenon, as the OT laws about adultery demonstrate.  Make no mistake, I&#039;m certainly in favor of equal treatment for men and women, but we&#039;re looking at the OT and NT assumptions at the moment.

The Septuagint translates &lt;i&gt;zanah&lt;/i&gt; as &lt;i&gt;porneia.&lt;/i&gt; &lt;i&gt;Zanah&lt;/i&gt; refers to sex with prostitutes and to adultery.  (That much I remember for sure from studying Hosea.  It could be that &lt;i&gt;zanah&lt;/i&gt; also means sex outside of marriage in other situations.)  Technically speaking, adultery and prostitution are sex outside of marriage, but there are further problems with both, obviously.  The LXX also uses &lt;i&gt;porneia&lt;/i&gt; as a metaphor for idolatry, in analogies in which God is the husband of Israel, thus it&#039;s probably closer in meaning to adultery than to anything else.  In 1 Cor. 5.1 &lt;i&gt;porneia&lt;/i&gt; refers to son-stepmother incest.  There is also a more specific word for adultery, &lt;i&gt;moicheia.&lt;/i&gt;

And if we&#039;re looking for lexical definitions, my Thayer says &quot;illicit sexual intercourse in general.&quot;

In sum, you can only claim that &lt;i&gt;porneia&lt;/i&gt; means &quot;sex outside of marriage between 2 people who otherwise could be married&quot; (ie not incest, prostitution or adultery) if you assume ahead of time that &quot;sex outside of marriage between 2 people who otherwise could be married&quot; is illicit.

And that&#039;s assuming the conclusion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On <i>porneia</i>&#8211;that looks like too many assumptions there.</p>
<p>Defining &#8220;fornication&#8221; as &#8220;sex outside marriage&#8221; is a modern phenomenon.  Having a problem with <i>men</i> having sex outside marriage (as long as it isn&#8217;t with someone else&#8217;s spouse or with a prostitute) is also a modern phenomenon, as the OT laws about adultery demonstrate.  Make no mistake, I&#8217;m certainly in favor of equal treatment for men and women, but we&#8217;re looking at the OT and NT assumptions at the moment.</p>
<p>The Septuagint translates <i>zanah</i> as <i>porneia.</i> <i>Zanah</i> refers to sex with prostitutes and to adultery.  (That much I remember for sure from studying Hosea.  It could be that <i>zanah</i> also means sex outside of marriage in other situations.)  Technically speaking, adultery and prostitution are sex outside of marriage, but there are further problems with both, obviously.  The LXX also uses <i>porneia</i> as a metaphor for idolatry, in analogies in which God is the husband of Israel, thus it&#8217;s probably closer in meaning to adultery than to anything else.  In 1 Cor. 5.1 <i>porneia</i> refers to son-stepmother incest.  There is also a more specific word for adultery, <i>moicheia.</i></p>
<p>And if we&#8217;re looking for lexical definitions, my Thayer says &#8220;illicit sexual intercourse in general.&#8221;</p>
<p>In sum, you can only claim that <i>porneia</i> means &#8220;sex outside of marriage between 2 people who otherwise could be married&#8221; (ie not incest, prostitution or adultery) if you assume ahead of time that &#8220;sex outside of marriage between 2 people who otherwise could be married&#8221; is illicit.</p>
<p>And that&#8217;s assuming the conclusion.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Capron</title>
		<link>http://presbymergent.org/2008/03/10/what-is-the-deal-with-chastity/comment-page-1/#comment-1535</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Capron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Mar 2008 18:00:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://presbymergent.org/2008/03/10/what-is-the-deal-with-chastity/#comment-1535</guid>
		<description>PS.  I want to mention Lauren Winnder&#039;s Book REAL SEX again.  It is a quick read, beautifully written and has chapter titles like &quot;Chastity as Spiritual Discipline&quot; and &quot;Communities of Chastity&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PS.  I want to mention Lauren Winnder&#8217;s Book REAL SEX again.  It is a quick read, beautifully written and has chapter titles like &#8220;Chastity as Spiritual Discipline&#8221; and &#8220;Communities of Chastity&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Capron</title>
		<link>http://presbymergent.org/2008/03/10/what-is-the-deal-with-chastity/comment-page-1/#comment-1534</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Capron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Mar 2008 17:54:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://presbymergent.org/2008/03/10/what-is-the-deal-with-chastity/#comment-1534</guid>
		<description>In response to Carol and Jim, I have to say that claiming the Greek porneia has noting to do with sex out of marriage is way overreaching.  

It can sometimes refer to cultic prostitution rather than &#039;fornication&#039;, but inserting that meaning into most verses doesn&#039;t make a lot of sense from context.  Look at Hebrews 13:4 for example.  The three lexicons I checked all state that &#039;fornication&#039; is the primary definition.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In response to Carol and Jim, I have to say that claiming the Greek porneia has noting to do with sex out of marriage is way overreaching.  </p>
<p>It can sometimes refer to cultic prostitution rather than &#8216;fornication&#8217;, but inserting that meaning into most verses doesn&#8217;t make a lot of sense from context.  Look at Hebrews 13:4 for example.  The three lexicons I checked all state that &#8216;fornication&#8217; is the primary definition.</p>
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		<title>By: Carol Howard Merritt</title>
		<link>http://presbymergent.org/2008/03/10/what-is-the-deal-with-chastity/comment-page-1/#comment-1529</link>
		<dc:creator>Carol Howard Merritt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Mar 2008 10:04:29 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Jim,

I&#039;m so glad you did the studying. I kept asking my husband, Brian, &quot;It&#039;s not in there is it? Sex before marriage isn&#039;t strictly prohibited is it?&quot; And neither one of us could think of anything or find much.... Faithfulness is important, of course...a beautiful Christian concept.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jim,</p>
<p>I&#8217;m so glad you did the studying. I kept asking my husband, Brian, &#8220;It&#8217;s not in there is it? Sex before marriage isn&#8217;t strictly prohibited is it?&#8221; And neither one of us could think of anything or find much&#8230;. Faithfulness is important, of course&#8230;a beautiful Christian concept.</p>
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		<title>By: ryan pappan</title>
		<link>http://presbymergent.org/2008/03/10/what-is-the-deal-with-chastity/comment-page-1/#comment-1517</link>
		<dc:creator>ryan pappan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Mar 2008 18:05:37 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Growing up I never heard about sex unless it was from Uncle Larry Flynt.  It is sad that we have expectations of singles that we do not prepare them to live in to.  We as the church as responsible for the horrible working conditions that plague the single life.  We make no room for exploration and grace in the polity.  When will we get that God calls messed up, broken people into the fold and they become leaders.  

I see the whole chastity thing as a way to be exclusive without having to take responsibility for saying that we do not want &quot;them&quot; in the pulpit.  It saddens me.  We should wear our colors and our stripes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Growing up I never heard about sex unless it was from Uncle Larry Flynt.  It is sad that we have expectations of singles that we do not prepare them to live in to.  We as the church as responsible for the horrible working conditions that plague the single life.  We make no room for exploration and grace in the polity.  When will we get that God calls messed up, broken people into the fold and they become leaders.  </p>
<p>I see the whole chastity thing as a way to be exclusive without having to take responsibility for saying that we do not want &#8220;them&#8221; in the pulpit.  It saddens me.  We should wear our colors and our stripes.</p>
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