PresbyMERGENT or PresbyURGENT
Hey all. This is a revision to my orginal post, but figured it might drive some thoughts, rants, reactions over here.
This post is not meant to spark a debate on the future of denominations as I understand this is a bigger question. Nevertheless here we are hanging out as Presbymergents in the Presbyterian Church (USA). I understand that we have issues - why I should leave - but I have also landed in a place where I think this is what is most helpful for me - why I will stay - at this point in time.
So here is the story . . .
Last week I met up with some MBCC transplants now living in the Chapel Hill/Durham area. One of the things I wanted to do was to go to church on Sunday. I take my responsibility to help those who leave one congregation to find another one very seriously. So I did some research, posted something over here at Presbymergent and scoured the Presbytery website. While there were some fine suggestions, from the online faces, we couldn’t find one that fit these folks needs, hopes, etc. Yes, I understand that they SHOULD be willing to go anywhere to worship God, but lets be real. It needs to be a place where they can both be fed and do some feedin’. There must be SOME reason that they would muddle through some of the other “stuff” that exists in any congregation. More importantly a church for them needs to have a postmodern worldview that is not just talked about and hoped for, but lived out. Tired, two-faced images of “We welcome all people,” “We are bible-based” or “We are NOT that” ring hallow and modern.
One of the couples had done some church visiting - giving each place two Sunday’s in a row - but found most to be the opposite of what they would like to be part of a community that is vital, engaging, compelling and relevant to their lives. None have felt like they truly wanted folks to engage in conversations and being community in new ways.
This is just sad. I am sure this in not just a NC Triangle thing, but if I were a church shopper with a postmodern worldview, would I find your church? Or more importantly, should I find it?
Keep in mind that these are not people who are looking for a consumer based church. These were folks who are engaged in ministry while they were in SF and understand that they should not look for a MBCC clone. They could deal with any style, but what we could tell from our web search was that the image and message of most churches was: tradition for traditions sake, come here if you are wealthy, young and elite, we are pretty much the same as we were in the 50’s. These seem harsh, but that is what was experienced.
So this raises the question, “What should we do?”
Now I know many of you out there would say that this is a denominational issue. I don’t think that is true. I think it is an American culture stagnation issue manifested in churches. Being a denomination does not automatically mean we can’t be vital, engaging, compelling and relevant. In fact, I think our rich traditions can give us more grounding to be that than being out on an island. But that is just me.
So dear Presbyterians. We are in dire straights. We must think of ways to be and do church differently to be able to meet the needs of so many that are seriously looking. I know this is nothing new, but this experience and the great possibility that these particular folks are somewhat being left out to dry by me and this denomination, has given me a sense of urgency about the ways we not just live community, but get the word out.
If you are of a postmodern way of being, share it better. If this is not your crowd, help the presbytery to share who is. Look at the bigger picture of local area congregations and ask the tough questions of whether or not all these types and styles of church would be doing better ministry if they were together and/or starting other church communities.
Whether or not you “buy” that this worldview is already the air we breath, one must at least acknowledge that these types of folks are absent from most Presbyterian Church. We must, for lack of a better phrase, diversify our efforts. Our denominational nature DOES allow us to be all things to all people, so it’s time to cowboy/cowgirl up my friends and get to the sharing of Christ in beautiful complexity that God allows.
Comment by Drew Ludwig on 2 August 2007:
I think that said people would find us, but I honestly don’t know.
I do believe that all such people in our neighborhood will have heard of us soon enough (I’ve only been here a few months), but city-wide? They’d have to find us on the web. Maybe I should add some “post modern” tags to the website.
A good challenge. And surprisingly optimistic–people are looking for churches like ours as opposed to the old model of concincing people to come to church the way it used to be.
Comment by Bruce Reyes-Chow on 2 August 2007:
Drew, it would be interesting to have someone go around and ask locals if they could recommend a church or know of any in the area. Though, I would think that most people who are looking for churches will start online, so what happens when you do a google search for churches in your area? Ahhh . . . the new - for some churches - ways of outreach.
Comment by Banu Moore on 3 August 2007:
For me community is not about being post-modern, but it is about being Christian. This Christ-filled life cannot be experienced without the presence of a genuine community.
And I love this phrase: “I think it is an American culture stagnation issue manifested in churches.” I believe what is emerging is the recognition of this stagnation within the church by those of us who are trying to break free for the sake of the Kingdom. We are finally listening to the Spirit calling us, challenging us, urging us… But we need to break free of more than stagnation.
We need to break free of affluenza! The church in other parts of the world especially in poverty-stricken places are growing by leaps and bounds. People don’t worry about the web, they worry about drinking water! When they a glass of water, they praise God!
Even those of us who claim of not being part of a comsumer-based church are still the biggest consumers. Post-modern or not, we are stricken with the worst form of affluenza. And I don’t know how change will happen when we so firmly hold on to the idea that we are entitled to “have”!
I am not sure if my words really relate to what you wrote, Bruce, but I guess these issues were in my heart.
Comment by Daniel Kirk on 3 August 2007:
I didn’t weigh in on the Triangle area church query a couple weeks ago–sorry about that. I just moved out of Durham after living there for 6 years, and prior to that for three years in and after college.
I would commend Blacknall Pres. as a church that, while not postmodern, is deeply concerned with its neighborhood, figuring out what it means to be a “mission outpost” for the kingdom, and developing authentic community. It does have a lot of “cultural elite” types, but even that is a result of mission–when the factory workers who filled the church decided that they were going to love the students at Duke University. If you’ve come from a pomo church, I can see that it would take a good bit of patience to see this in Blacknall, but I’d encourage your friends to give it a really good shake.
Also, Tim Condor at Emmaus Way in some ways lives between the worlds of emerging and traditional church. Emmaus Way was started with a deeply missional bent, and has written a book on churches rediscovering their cultural context.
So…
(a) I think you’re right–stagnation is a deadly disease besetting American churches. Denominations have a tendency to institutionalize and legislate stagnation, so those of us in the PC(USA) and other mainline denoms have our work cut out for us.
(b) There’s at least one PC(USA) church in Durham where I think the kinds of questions your friends want to ask would be seriously heard–even if they had to lead a bit more than they’d want.
(c) There’s at least one non-denom church in Durham where these sorts of questions are being aggressively engaged.
If your friends want to e-mail me, I’d be happy to talk church shop with them: jrdkirk[at]gmail[dot]com.
Comment by Bruce Reyes-Chow on 3 August 2007:
Banu - thanks for the thoughts and helpful nudges to us all.
Daniel - Thanks, I’ll point them your way. One of the churches that you mentioned was visited by one of the couples and half of the sermon was making fun of anyone who is part of a particular denomination. VERY disappointing. It was the main pastor so they did not warrant a second visit.
Comment by Ed Brenegar on 6 August 2007:
I work with a wide variety of churches. For many of them, they are just NOW beginning to ask the questions that a year, two or five, will lead them toward something like an emerging/Emergent experience. My suggestion is that they go to coffee shops and ask people where they go to church.
If they come as far west as Asheville, I’d recommend First Pres. It isn’t emergent, but it is pushing the boundaries of traditional worship in ways that are refreshing. Let me put it this way. Its been over twenty years since I experienced worship like we are now experiencing at First.
The problem is that emergent is not an approach that is rising out of the southern cultural model of the church. It is a big hurdle to overcome.
Comment by Steve K. on 6 August 2007:
Hey Bruce,
I’m not Presbymergent, but I thought I’d drop in on the conversation here briefly just to interject the names of some Emergent folks in the NC Triangle area that you might want to get in touch with: Tripp Fuller and Zach Miller. Tripp and Zach are a couple of the cohort leaders up in that area, and though they are more Baptimergent (?) they are pretty plugged into the church scene up there and would probably be glad to help your MBCC transplant friends get connected:
http://greensboroabbey.squarespace.com/tripp-fuller/
http://greensboroabbey.squarespace.com/zach-roberts/
Of course Tim Conder is in that area as well. Forgive me if you’ve already been down this list already
Shalom,
Steve K.
Comment by BLM on 15 February 2008:
Baptimergent. I love it.
Comment by Baron on 7 April 2008:
I am afraid of this post-modernity movement that is going on. Please preach the Gospel whatever you do. And the Gospel that is talked about in the Bible. Please… I am praying for you.
Comment by Drew Ludwig on 7 April 2008:
Don’t sweat it, Baron. We do.