Comments on: Better late than… http://presbymergent.org/2007/03/19/better-late-than/ Loyal Radicals Mon, 22 Feb 2010 16:57:51 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Presbymergent Retrospective, 2007 : presbymergent http://presbymergent.org/2007/03/19/better-late-than/comment-page-1/#comment-1236 Presbymergent Retrospective, 2007 : presbymergent Tue, 01 Jan 2008 05:04:15 +0000 http://presbymergent.org/2007/03/19/better-late-than/#comment-1236 [...] theme “Why I Am Presbymergent.” Notable guests like LeRon Shults, Nannette Sawyer, and Troy Bronsink, weigh in with posts of their [...] [...] theme “Why I Am Presbymergent.” Notable guests like LeRon Shults, Nannette Sawyer, and Troy Bronsink, weigh in with posts of their [...]

]]> By: troy bronsink http://presbymergent.org/2007/03/19/better-late-than/comment-page-1/#comment-373 troy bronsink Tue, 27 Mar 2007 18:43:42 +0000 http://presbymergent.org/2007/03/19/better-late-than/#comment-373 I think I understand the "it chose me" approach. And that everything has roots, traditions, and memory. However, I have not found it possible to either (a) do a tradition because I have chosen it or (b) avoid other traditions that I have not claimed. Tradition is a powerful force when it gives us lenses for truth-telling and helps us discover deep memories in each other. It functions as a matrix of meaning. tradition allows us to move expeditiously through issues with short cut definitions and shared postures. But there are many other ways that we opperate unenlightned about tradition. Un-named traditions also expidite processes and so the "naming of our tradition" cannot save us alone. Both named and unnamed traditions create "brackets" that can exclude and objectify the other. I do not suggest that we quit exploring out "presbyterian-ness" but rather we avoid giving presbyterianism or a congregation or denomination that authority of "precedence." The burning bush, Ezekiel'd dry bones, the works of Jesus Christ, the resurection, the coming strenght of the HOly SPirit... these are unprecedented things that define a new reality. Presbyterianism (tradition) cannot define the coming reality, the kindom of God. Presbyterian (and other traditions) can, however, create an environement for responding to that reality communally with the courage for such things as confession, reconciliation, and innovation. I think I understand the “it chose me” approach. And that everything has roots, traditions, and memory. However, I have not found it possible to either (a) do a tradition because I have chosen it or (b) avoid other traditions that I have not claimed.

Tradition is a powerful force when it gives us lenses for truth-telling and helps us discover deep memories in each other. It functions as a matrix of meaning. tradition allows us to move expeditiously through issues with short cut definitions and shared postures.

But there are many other ways that we opperate unenlightned about tradition. Un-named traditions also expidite processes and so the “naming of our tradition” cannot save us alone. Both named and unnamed traditions create “brackets” that can exclude and objectify the other.

I do not suggest that we quit exploring out “presbyterian-ness” but rather we avoid giving presbyterianism or a congregation or denomination that authority of “precedence.” The burning bush, Ezekiel’d dry bones, the works of Jesus Christ, the resurection, the coming strenght of the HOly SPirit… these are unprecedented things that define a new reality. Presbyterianism (tradition) cannot define the coming reality, the kindom of God. Presbyterian (and other traditions) can, however, create an environement for responding to that reality communally with the courage for such things as confession, reconciliation, and innovation.

]]> By: Craig Clarkson http://presbymergent.org/2007/03/19/better-late-than/comment-page-1/#comment-372 Craig Clarkson Mon, 26 Mar 2007 13:01:51 +0000 http://presbymergent.org/2007/03/19/better-late-than/#comment-372 Andrew wrote: "[I]f intentional about ministry in a postmodern milieu, why claim any tradition, specifically the one we do?" My $0.02: Good question. I hope you'll forgive me turning it around a bit... Can one <i>not</i> claim a tradition? I agree with what I think is a sense of reflection and intentionality about postmodern ministry within a tradition. But if one doesn't <i>claim</i> a tradition what does that mean, that one is somehow unencumbered by a tradition? I don't think that's possible. Likewise, I "chose" PC(USA) - and for none of the reasons that I currently find myself concerned with now - but I'm not sure what the implications are when I think about having chosen a tradition. Sometimes it seems more appropo to say that it chose me. Andrew wrote:
“[I]f intentional about ministry in a postmodern milieu, why claim any tradition, specifically the one we do?”

My $0.02:
Good question. I hope you’ll forgive me turning it around a bit… Can one not claim a tradition? I agree with what I think is a sense of reflection and intentionality about postmodern ministry within a tradition. But if one doesn’t claim a tradition what does that mean, that one is somehow unencumbered by a tradition? I don’t think that’s possible.

Likewise, I “chose” PC(USA) – and for none of the reasons that I currently find myself concerned with now – but I’m not sure what the implications are when I think about having chosen a tradition. Sometimes it seems more appropo to say that it chose me.

]]> By: Andrew Hoeksema http://presbymergent.org/2007/03/19/better-late-than/comment-page-1/#comment-369 Andrew Hoeksema Sat, 24 Mar 2007 07:12:49 +0000 http://presbymergent.org/2007/03/19/better-late-than/#comment-369 Troy, (my last post was Andrew H, but I say everyone else uses full names, so...) Thanks for the reply/refinement of my statement. To clarify, I was rhetorically presenting the need of the question of "why tradition in the emerging context?" and you gave a very provocative and meaningful answer. Interesting too to examine tradition vs. denomination, but I think we are on the same page. I want to beat the ferret/dinosaur metaphor to death a little more: I have rich theological belief in the interdependence of all things in creation, so I would like to think that the dinosaur may be completely unaware, ignorant, and dangerous to the survival of the ferret, but still unconsciously depends on the ferret for its own survival because they are part of the same larger system (ecological or ecclesiastical if you will). This fits in with Troy's answer to the question above. If we claim presbymergent, we must be intentional about the effect we have on the larger system of ecclesiology, but specifically the PCUSA. I am going to step out and say one of the many candles of hope that emerging congregations or belief systems can offer to the PC(USA) is that unity is possible in the midst of diversity of thought and practice and unity in fact depends on diversity. This is something people in Louisville are writing about, but emerging faith communities perhaps need to evangelize how we are (hopefully) attempting to live it out. This is actually something I have learned from and seen exhibited by Mission Bay Community Church in San Francisco (Pastor Bruce Reyes Chow) who is on this site. How else do we need to witness to the larger PC(USA) through the nature of the communities that represent emerging. Troy, (my last post was Andrew H, but I say everyone else uses full names, so…)

Thanks for the reply/refinement of my statement. To clarify, I was rhetorically presenting the need of the question of “why tradition in the emerging context?” and you gave a very provocative and meaningful answer. Interesting too to examine tradition vs. denomination, but I think we are on the same page.

I want to beat the ferret/dinosaur metaphor to death a little more: I have rich theological belief in the interdependence of all things in creation, so I would like to think that the dinosaur may be completely unaware, ignorant, and dangerous to the survival of the ferret, but still unconsciously depends on the ferret for its own survival because they are part of the same larger system (ecological or ecclesiastical if you will). This fits in with Troy’s answer to the question above. If we claim presbymergent, we must be intentional about the effect we have on the larger system of ecclesiology, but specifically the PCUSA. I am going to step out and say one of the many candles of hope that emerging congregations or belief systems can offer to the PC(USA) is that unity is possible in the midst of diversity of thought and practice and unity in fact depends on diversity. This is something people in Louisville are writing about, but emerging faith communities perhaps need to evangelize how we are (hopefully) attempting to live it out. This is actually something I have learned from and seen exhibited by Mission Bay Community Church in San Francisco (Pastor Bruce Reyes Chow) who is on this site.

How else do we need to witness to the larger PC(USA) through the nature of the communities that represent emerging.

]]> By: George Love http://presbymergent.org/2007/03/19/better-late-than/comment-page-1/#comment-365 George Love Wed, 21 Mar 2007 17:10:24 +0000 http://presbymergent.org/2007/03/19/better-late-than/#comment-365 "I’ll admit, I don’t know if “emergent” and “PCUSA” can co-exist. Let’s see what the Holy Spirit has in mind for this totally unpragmatic marriage…" I am rolling this around in mind trying to find a handle to get a grip on it. I suspect pretty much anything can co-exist with anything else (the Layman and the Witherspoon Society for example), but we're talking here, I guess, about productively co-existing. It's a bit like a dinosaur (sorry about the most tired and cliched symbol, but it just kept coming back) co-existing with a ferret. The dinosaur can go an eternity without knowing the ferret is there. The ferret moves so quickly that it's here, there and everywhere. The ferret could decide (okay ferrets probably aren't making a lot of thoughtful decisions, but play along) that the dinosaur is too big and just plain dangerous and move to a safe distance. Anyway, I hope they can productively co-exist. I'm liking the term missional better than the term emergent these days, but whatever "it" is called I think there is a lot of hope for the church in conversing with the ideas of emergent. “I’ll admit, I don’t know if “emergent” and “PCUSA” can co-exist. Let’s see what the Holy Spirit has in mind for this totally unpragmatic marriage…”
I am rolling this around in mind trying to find a handle to get a grip on it. I suspect pretty much anything can co-exist with anything else (the Layman and the Witherspoon Society for example), but we’re talking here, I guess, about productively co-existing. It’s a bit like a dinosaur (sorry about the most tired and cliched symbol, but it just kept coming back) co-existing with a ferret. The dinosaur can go an eternity without knowing the ferret is there. The ferret moves so quickly that it’s here, there and everywhere. The ferret could decide (okay ferrets probably aren’t making a lot of thoughtful decisions, but play along) that the dinosaur is too big and just plain dangerous and move to a safe distance.
Anyway, I hope they can productively co-exist. I’m liking the term missional better than the term emergent these days, but whatever “it” is called I think there is a lot of hope for the church in conversing with the ideas of emergent.

]]> By: Tom Livengood http://presbymergent.org/2007/03/19/better-late-than/comment-page-1/#comment-361 Tom Livengood Wed, 21 Mar 2007 04:01:09 +0000 http://presbymergent.org/2007/03/19/better-late-than/#comment-361 Troy - it is truly wonderful to have you part of this discussion. We need such voices that mingle between being in the margins and within the "mainline". The struggle to be "presbymergent" needs to be more fully explored/debated. I look forward to your (Troy and others) contributions to this important conversation. I'll admit, I don't know if "emergent" and "PCUSA" can co-exist. Let's see what the Holy Spirit has in mind for this totally unpragmatic marriage... Troy – it is truly wonderful to have you part of this discussion. We need such voices that mingle between being in the margins and within the “mainline”.

The struggle to be “presbymergent” needs to be more fully explored/debated. I look forward to your (Troy and others) contributions to this important conversation.

I’ll admit, I don’t know if “emergent” and “PCUSA” can co-exist. Let’s see what the Holy Spirit has in mind for this totally unpragmatic marriage…

]]> By: The Web and Christ's Mission http://presbymergent.org/2007/03/19/better-late-than/comment-page-1/#comment-358 The Web and Christ's Mission Tue, 20 Mar 2007 03:11:20 +0000 http://presbymergent.org/2007/03/19/better-late-than/#comment-358 <strong>More Online Christian Resources (via Michael Ludwig)...</strong> A while back I'd posted some comments about wanting to compile a list of online Christian resources .... More Online Christian Resources (via Michael Ludwig)…

A while back I’d posted some comments about wanting to compile a list of online Christian resources ….

]]> By: drew ludwig http://presbymergent.org/2007/03/19/better-late-than/comment-page-1/#comment-356 drew ludwig Mon, 19 Mar 2007 20:14:01 +0000 http://presbymergent.org/2007/03/19/better-late-than/#comment-356 This is good stuff. I, too, am suspicious of denominationally centered things, but I have also found great community within my demonination. I need the connections of my tradition, even as others with those same connections frustrate me. Your last sentence is just right. I'm printing it out. This is good stuff. I, too, am suspicious of denominationally centered things, but I have also found great community within my demonination. I need the connections of my tradition, even as others with those same connections frustrate me.

Your last sentence is just right. I’m printing it out.

]]> By: Troy Bronsink http://presbymergent.org/2007/03/19/better-late-than/comment-page-1/#comment-355 Troy Bronsink Mon, 19 Mar 2007 20:00:17 +0000 http://presbymergent.org/2007/03/19/better-late-than/#comment-355 karen, thanks for the store plug:) Andrew, you wrote: "if intentional about ministry in a postmodern milieu, why claim any tradition, specifically the one we do?" I do not mean to suggest that traditions only serve as means to an end. Rather, tradition must be examined in terms of its end and is always being either shaped by its adherents or shaping its adherents (or both). What I am suggesting is that we are not being reformed unless we are continually re-shaping, reexmining, and reconfessing AND that such re-formation requires a deep ecclesiology cooperating with a wide variety of orthopraxies (certainly wider than just us PC(USA)ers). karen, thanks for the store plug:)

Andrew,
you wrote:
“if intentional about ministry in a postmodern milieu, why claim any tradition, specifically the one we do?”

I do not mean to suggest that traditions only serve as means to an end. Rather, tradition must be examined in terms of its end and is always being either shaped by its adherents or shaping its adherents (or both). What I am suggesting is that we are not being reformed unless we are continually re-shaping, reexmining, and reconfessing AND that such re-formation requires a deep ecclesiology cooperating with a wide variety of orthopraxies (certainly wider than just us PC(USA)ers).

]]> By: Andrew H http://presbymergent.org/2007/03/19/better-late-than/comment-page-1/#comment-352 Andrew H Mon, 19 Mar 2007 17:43:04 +0000 http://presbymergent.org/2007/03/19/better-late-than/#comment-352 As a newcomer to PC(USA), going on three weeks, and pursuing ministry (emerging in some way I am sure), I appreciate your thoughts on if Emerging, why reformed or Presbyterian? We should regularly be asking the question -- if intentional about ministry in a postmodern milieu, why claim any tradition, specifically the one we do? That's a huge question for me, involved at a not yet emerging church in Berkeley, CA. Good ordering of thoughts on reformed tradition being a means to the end of God's dream of new creation. As a newcomer to PC(USA), going on three weeks, and pursuing ministry (emerging in some way I am sure), I appreciate your thoughts on if Emerging, why reformed or Presbyterian?

We should regularly be asking the question — if intentional about ministry in a postmodern milieu, why claim any tradition, specifically the one we do? That’s a huge question for me, involved at a not yet emerging church in Berkeley, CA. Good ordering of thoughts on reformed tradition being a means to the end of God’s dream of new creation.

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