Comments on: Wrestling with angels (demons?) http://presbymergent.org/2007/02/26/wrestling-with-angels-demons/ Loyal Radicals Sat, 19 Jun 2010 14:21:12 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: Presbymergent Retrospective, 2007 : presbymergent http://presbymergent.org/2007/02/26/wrestling-with-angels-demons/comment-page-1/#comment-1244 Presbymergent Retrospective, 2007 : presbymergent Tue, 01 Jan 2008 05:11:04 +0000 http://presbymergent.org/2007/02/26/wrestling-with-angels-demons/#comment-1244 [...] Wrestling with Angels (Demons), by Steve Clark [...] [...] Wrestling with Angels (Demons), by Steve Clark [...]

]]> By: Tony Arens http://presbymergent.org/2007/02/26/wrestling-with-angels-demons/comment-page-1/#comment-314 Tony Arens Fri, 09 Mar 2007 14:02:07 +0000 http://presbymergent.org/2007/02/26/wrestling-with-angels-demons/#comment-314 You can get them online here - http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/christian.shtml I live in Minneapolis, and there are many shops that sell them in the uptown area. ;-) You can get them online here –

http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/christian.shtml

I live in Minneapolis, and there are many shops that sell them in the uptown area. ;-)

]]> By: Neal Locke http://presbymergent.org/2007/02/26/wrestling-with-angels-demons/comment-page-1/#comment-313 Neal Locke Thu, 08 Mar 2007 22:30:10 +0000 http://presbymergent.org/2007/02/26/wrestling-with-angels-demons/#comment-313 Now that we're done talking about labyrinths...can anyone tell me where I can get me some o' them Christian Tarot cards? ;-) Now that we’re done talking about labyrinths…can anyone tell me where I can get me some o’ them Christian Tarot cards? ;-)

]]> By: moose http://presbymergent.org/2007/02/26/wrestling-with-angels-demons/comment-page-1/#comment-309 moose Thu, 08 Mar 2007 19:05:54 +0000 http://presbymergent.org/2007/02/26/wrestling-with-angels-demons/#comment-309 Tony, I appreciate your passion and conviction, but not sure I understand your reference to Matthew 6 as it pertains to this discussion, nor do I see any references other than to Gentiles and hypocrites. Peace, Moose Tony,

I appreciate your passion and conviction, but not sure I understand your reference to Matthew 6 as it pertains to this discussion, nor do I see any references other than to Gentiles and hypocrites.

Peace,

Moose

]]> By: Tony Arens http://presbymergent.org/2007/02/26/wrestling-with-angels-demons/comment-page-1/#comment-308 Tony Arens Thu, 08 Mar 2007 15:44:27 +0000 http://presbymergent.org/2007/02/26/wrestling-with-angels-demons/#comment-308 Thanks Drew - Fair enough, however, I will continue to follow scripture with regard to pagan practices - passive symbols like Christmas trees are one thing, but "to pray as pagan do (Matt 6)" is a practice may cause another to stumble. Walking the labyrinth may make a person feel well and good inside, but in my heart of hearts and in the way I interpret scripture, I go not think that God considers it well and good. Drew, I guess we'll have to lovingly disagree on this one! Peace, Tony Thanks Drew –
Fair enough, however, I will continue to follow scripture with regard to pagan practices – passive symbols like Christmas trees are one thing, but “to pray as pagan do (Matt 6)” is a practice may cause another to stumble.

Walking the labyrinth may make a person feel well and good inside, but in my heart of hearts and in the way I interpret scripture, I go not think that God considers it well and good.

Drew, I guess we’ll have to lovingly disagree on this one!

Peace,
Tony

]]> By: drew http://presbymergent.org/2007/02/26/wrestling-with-angels-demons/comment-page-1/#comment-307 drew Thu, 08 Mar 2007 14:26:12 +0000 http://presbymergent.org/2007/02/26/wrestling-with-angels-demons/#comment-307 I think this is a case of "it's not what goes into you that makes you unclean, but what comes out of you." Being around a pagan practice isn't to be feared, but walking the labrynth with pagan motivations is! I think it got discussed somewhere else on this site, but the whole, "eating meat sacrificed to idols" discussion comes up. Christ has made us free! We shouldn't use our freedom to sin, but we also should no longer fear stumbling into paganism by walking a labrynth, putting up a Christmas tree, or exchanging wedding rings. In my opinion, these are redeemable practices. I think this is a case of “it’s not what goes into you that makes you unclean, but what comes out of you.” Being around a pagan practice isn’t to be feared, but walking the labrynth with pagan motivations is!

I think it got discussed somewhere else on this site, but the whole, “eating meat sacrificed to idols” discussion comes up.

Christ has made us free! We shouldn’t use our freedom to sin, but we also should no longer fear stumbling into paganism by walking a labrynth, putting up a Christmas tree, or exchanging wedding rings. In my opinion, these are redeemable practices.

]]> By: Tony Arens http://presbymergent.org/2007/02/26/wrestling-with-angels-demons/comment-page-1/#comment-306 Tony Arens Thu, 08 Mar 2007 14:04:15 +0000 http://presbymergent.org/2007/02/26/wrestling-with-angels-demons/#comment-306 Thanks Neal - I work with a huge Muslim population, and have established some great relationships where we discuss matters of faith. The trinity thing always somes up, and almost 100% of the time, I find that no one has bothered to really talk to them and try to explain it (though that is certainly difficult!) And they get it! It's really cool to see... Pagan Practices: I understand that scripture warns us against many practices - but here I'm talking about prayer - So if scripture warns us to not partake in these pagan practices, then why dabble in the Labyrinth? Thanks Neal –

I work with a huge Muslim population, and have established some great relationships where we discuss matters of faith. The trinity thing always somes up, and almost 100% of the time, I find that no one has bothered to really talk to them and try to explain it (though that is certainly difficult!) And they get it! It’s really cool to see…

Pagan Practices:
I understand that scripture warns us against many practices – but here I’m talking about prayer –
So if scripture warns us to not partake in these pagan practices, then why dabble in the Labyrinth?

]]> By: Neal Locke http://presbymergent.org/2007/02/26/wrestling-with-angels-demons/comment-page-1/#comment-303 Neal Locke Wed, 07 Mar 2007 21:24:43 +0000 http://presbymergent.org/2007/02/26/wrestling-with-angels-demons/#comment-303 I have a few Jewish friends and at least one Muslim friend who feel that we, as Christians, are a polytheistic religion because of our emphasis on the Trinity. I have to admit that the concept of three-are-one and one-is-three sounds pretty incomprehensible to an outsider. But I'm ok with things that are incomprehensible. You? As to the second question, the scriptures warn against many practices, pagan or otherwise. Warnings against greed and pride come to mind quickly, for me at least. With all things, context is a big part of my approach to understanding scripture. I don't think, however, I would refer to it as "rationalizing." That seems to be a rather loaded word that prejudges my intentions. But perhaps I'm rationalizing that... I have a few Jewish friends and at least one Muslim friend who feel that we, as Christians, are a polytheistic religion because of our emphasis on the Trinity. I have to admit that the concept of three-are-one and one-is-three sounds pretty incomprehensible to an outsider. But I’m ok with things that are incomprehensible. You?

As to the second question, the scriptures warn against many practices, pagan or otherwise. Warnings against greed and pride come to mind quickly, for me at least. With all things, context is a big part of my approach to understanding scripture.

I don’t think, however, I would refer to it as “rationalizing.” That seems to be a rather loaded word that prejudges my intentions. But perhaps I’m rationalizing that…

]]> By: Tony Arens http://presbymergent.org/2007/02/26/wrestling-with-angels-demons/comment-page-1/#comment-300 Tony Arens Wed, 07 Mar 2007 20:39:14 +0000 http://presbymergent.org/2007/02/26/wrestling-with-angels-demons/#comment-300 Neal - When I say pagan, I am referring those who practice a polytheistic religion. Sincere question: how do you rationalize the Scriptures warning against pagan practices? Neal –
When I say pagan, I am referring those who practice a polytheistic religion. Sincere question: how do you rationalize the Scriptures warning against pagan practices?

]]> By: wb http://presbymergent.org/2007/02/26/wrestling-with-angels-demons/comment-page-1/#comment-299 wb Wed, 07 Mar 2007 20:06:53 +0000 http://presbymergent.org/2007/02/26/wrestling-with-angels-demons/#comment-299 "A walk in the woods witnessing God’s awesome creation never lead anyone astray…" I really hope that was a sarcastic comment, and you were not serious. If you were serious then you just underminded your whole argument by making a closing remark regarding the benefits of Natural Theology. While extremes such as marriage consumation in the middle of a labyrinth may be impossible for the church to condone. If we believe that the Incarnation and the <em>imago dei</em> reveal a God who is initimately involved in His creation then perhaps through wise discernment of scripture tools such as a labyrinth may be used to point us towards God. So long as they are understood as a process for illumination and not the revelation itself--because that is solely Jesus Christ. But cleve, I beleive that it is important for artistic expression to come from within the community or at least be something which the community has the ability to understand. Therefore, I encourage you to continue to seek creative ways to expand your congregations interaction with the scriptures, and find further encouragement by the fact that they want more scripture. “A walk in the woods witnessing God’s awesome creation never lead anyone astray…”

I really hope that was a sarcastic comment, and you were not serious. If you were serious then you just underminded your whole argument by making a closing remark regarding the benefits of Natural Theology.

While extremes such as marriage consumation in the middle of a labyrinth may be impossible for the church to condone. If we believe that the Incarnation and the imago dei reveal a God who is initimately involved in His creation then perhaps through wise discernment of scripture tools such as a labyrinth may be used to point us towards God. So long as they are understood as a process for illumination and not the revelation itself–because that is solely Jesus Christ.

But cleve, I beleive that it is important for artistic expression to come from within the community or at least be something which the community has the ability to understand. Therefore, I encourage you to continue to seek creative ways to expand your congregations interaction with the scriptures, and find further encouragement by the fact that they want more scripture.

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