Hey, I’m new to the discussion but really excited to join in. Very inspired, intrigued, unsettled by what I read. As co-pastor (with my wife) of a traditional congregation in a VERY traditional central PA (“Welcome to the Heart of the Pennsylvania Dutch Country”) community, wondering what possibilities exist for emergent life to take hold here. REALLY wondering now that we’re in midst of HUGE controversy set off by use of a prayer labryinth at our recent session retreat. Listening to some of the response, you’d think we’d sacrificed a goat or something! Biggest response centers on “We just need the Bible, nothing else”. . . ie modernism is alive and well in our midst. Which brought this rising up from within me recently:
THE WAY
How shall I savor
glittering glimpses of heavenly grace
sparkling in the heavens ’round
while I gorge upon cold truths
How shall I hear
crystalline melodies of heavenly glory
ringing in the heavens ’round
while I chisel listes of principled proposition
hoarding datum to butress my certainty
laying brick for spirit’s fortress
strong against uncertainty
against questioning
seeking answers more than wonder as
behind the walls I huddle
still anxious
fearfully awaiting imminent assault
to subvert more-than-solid foundations
not knowing whence it comes
certain it will!
doing meantime best to butress and bolster
All the while
stars glitter ’round in the heavens
jewels in the darkness beckon
hymns resound in the heavens
angel voices bidding
Come!
call to the journey
to follow the light to find the Light
Know the way of the pilgrim
the certainty
not of exactness
nor certainty
but adventure and wonder and purifying pain
life abundant
in breathing deep the air between
the sparkling stars
not alone
never alone
on The Way.
* sigh *
About Steve Clark
Might I suggest taking them at thier word? Read the Bible, pray the bible, talk about the Bible, sing the Bible. All of that! Why should they do the labrynth if they don’t want to?
And really, I think that nothing will break the “modernism in thier midst” like scripture! (After all, it’s pretty darn pre-modern.
Drew is right.
Lead a Bible study on the Book of Acts with your leaders and ponder questions like: how is our congregation like the 1st century church and how is it not? And what’s up with that?
I don’t think Clevestark is talking about ‘throwing the baby out with the bathwater.’ It sounds to me like you are tapping into the resources of the Bible already. People do need to be challenged with new ways of growing in the faith. Some people just don’t want to change; that’s a part of life in the parish, premodern, modern or postmodern. But that doesn’t have to get you off track in helping them to grow. I think Jan is right – a study of the book of Acts would be a great place to start the conversation.
Having served a church in PA (not PCUSA), I have some understanding of the culture. And having come to Presbyterianism late in life as a convert out of Liberalism (you mean there is a difference?!), I understand the controversy.
Your session probably saw in the prayer labrynith (http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/labyrinth.htm) all that is associated with false religion and paganism. You will probably read that as an overstatement, but it isn’t.
The issue is the difference between faithfulness and unfaithfulness. The line has been significantly blurred over the past ___ (fill in the blank, i.e. 20, 50, 100, 200, 500) years.
In an effort to help clarify the “line,” I am in the process of writing a book (http://www.pilgrim-platform.org/informalxnty.htm). And I’m interested to see how the Emergent community will receive it. It is still in a draft form. Nonetheless, if anyone would like to see a prepublication copy, send me your address. (Obviously, there is a limit to the number of copies I can send out — $6-8 each.)
The deal is that I’ll send it to you, but will want a written response in return, whether you like it or not.
Let me know.
Phillip — I read the labyrinth website, and completely disagree. When it comes down to it, there’s not much in Christianity that *doesn’t* have origins or influence from outside religions and cultures. That doesn’t have to be a bad thing. You’re not arguing that we should abandon Christmas trees too, are you? Or Easter?
I’ve personally found labyrinths to be a refreshing and spiritual form of practice that has deepened my prayer-life. If we are to know believers by their “fruit,” then perhaps the same can be said of spiritual practices like labyrinths.
On the subject of your forthcoming book, I noticed the following quote: “Christians and churches that do not enthusiastically embrace biblical doctrine and theology as the life-blood of faithfulness, tend to spend their time and energy polishing the outside of the cup.” I have a question. In your opinion, what constitutes “biblical doctrine and theology?”
Researching the origins of labyrinths will tell an interesting story. I was invited to a pagan wedding years ago where the marrying couple walked the labyrinth and consumated their union in the center – while the wedding party watched. It was frightening…
Just because we Christians have a long tradition of “christianizing” pagan practices (trees, Easter, etc.) doesn’t mean it’s the right thing to do. We are a bright and creative community that is capable of developing our own spiritual practices without borrowing controversial, pagan ones. This would also help very much to differentiate followers of Jesus with the pagan world.
Why can’t we do both? Jesus, Paul and a host of catholic saints weren’t above using cultural icons and practices to make spiritual points.
And how’d you end up getting invited to a wedding like that? What exactly was it that made the experience “frightening” to you?
The guy getting married was a guy I worked with. Dude, they consumated their union in front of all of us… you know – got naked and worked the whole show…
As we adopt pagan practices, the differentiation between us and the world diminishes. It confuses many – especially young seekers. Scripture does also tell us to refrain from pagan practices.
Please share with me the cultural icons and practices Jesus used if you would.
Neal, we’re not talking about making a spiritual point, we’re talking about prayer!
Peace,
Tony
I don’t hear clevestark suggesting anything disparaging about the Bible, but rather a possible frustration with a one-dimensional approach to how one apprehends the movement, voice, nudging, insight of the Spirit. If we read in his comments (forgive me, cleve, for putting words in your mouth or thoughts in your mind) that the Bible is “so five minutes ago,” outside the context of his frustration with a church anchored in modernism, then I think we’re missing his point. If you read his poem, do you not get the sense that he yearns to find words to express the unfathomable mystery of God while living in the landscape of propositional orthodoxy? Read it again, and then tell me that his intentions with a labyrinth will be leading him into embracing pagan practices.
Of course his intentions are NOT to embrace pagan practices! Who in the world would think that? I am simply saying the the use of pagan practices made “christianized” can lead children astray.
Question: Why walk a labyrinth? Does it attract and focus earth energy? Does it have other supernatural powers? If not, then why not walk through the woods and experience Him through the wonders of His creation?
Why a labyrinth? Why Yoga? Why Christian Tarot? Why promote something with questionable origins when it could lead even one astray? A walk in the woods witnessing God’s awesome creation never lead anyone astray…
Tony — You asked me to share what cultural icons and practices Jesus used to make spiritual points, but then in your next sentence you said that “we’re not talking about making a spiritual point, we’re talking about prayer.” So I’m not sure if you want me to answer your question or not.
You made a very good point about differentiation between us and the world. I agree. But I would point to “Christian consumerism” (ie Christian bookstores, Starbucks in megachurches, pastor as CEO) as a far more disconcerting convergence of church and culture than labyrinths.
As far as taking a walk in the woods, that sounds like a great idea. But I’m sure some pagans have done that at some point too. Should we avoid it, then? Labyrinths may have been used by pagans, but they’ve also been around for a long time in one form or another, and used for many purposes by mice and men alike. I don’t think pagans really have sole right of ownership there.
By the way, what exactly do you mean when you say “pagan?” Are you referring to someone who doesn’t fit your definition of what a “Christian” is, or a historical/cultural group of people in particular?
“A walk in the woods witnessing God’s awesome creation never lead anyone astray…”
I really hope that was a sarcastic comment, and you were not serious. If you were serious then you just underminded your whole argument by making a closing remark regarding the benefits of Natural Theology.
While extremes such as marriage consumation in the middle of a labyrinth may be impossible for the church to condone. If we believe that the Incarnation and the imago dei reveal a God who is initimately involved in His creation then perhaps through wise discernment of scripture tools such as a labyrinth may be used to point us towards God. So long as they are understood as a process for illumination and not the revelation itself–because that is solely Jesus Christ.
But cleve, I beleive that it is important for artistic expression to come from within the community or at least be something which the community has the ability to understand. Therefore, I encourage you to continue to seek creative ways to expand your congregations interaction with the scriptures, and find further encouragement by the fact that they want more scripture.
Neal –
When I say pagan, I am referring those who practice a polytheistic religion. Sincere question: how do you rationalize the Scriptures warning against pagan practices?
I have a few Jewish friends and at least one Muslim friend who feel that we, as Christians, are a polytheistic religion because of our emphasis on the Trinity. I have to admit that the concept of three-are-one and one-is-three sounds pretty incomprehensible to an outsider. But I’m ok with things that are incomprehensible. You?
As to the second question, the scriptures warn against many practices, pagan or otherwise. Warnings against greed and pride come to mind quickly, for me at least. With all things, context is a big part of my approach to understanding scripture.
I don’t think, however, I would refer to it as “rationalizing.” That seems to be a rather loaded word that prejudges my intentions. But perhaps I’m rationalizing that…
Thanks Neal –
I work with a huge Muslim population, and have established some great relationships where we discuss matters of faith. The trinity thing always somes up, and almost 100% of the time, I find that no one has bothered to really talk to them and try to explain it (though that is certainly difficult!) And they get it! It’s really cool to see…
Pagan Practices:
I understand that scripture warns us against many practices – but here I’m talking about prayer –
So if scripture warns us to not partake in these pagan practices, then why dabble in the Labyrinth?
I think this is a case of “it’s not what goes into you that makes you unclean, but what comes out of you.” Being around a pagan practice isn’t to be feared, but walking the labrynth with pagan motivations is!
I think it got discussed somewhere else on this site, but the whole, “eating meat sacrificed to idols” discussion comes up.
Christ has made us free! We shouldn’t use our freedom to sin, but we also should no longer fear stumbling into paganism by walking a labrynth, putting up a Christmas tree, or exchanging wedding rings. In my opinion, these are redeemable practices.
Thanks Drew –
Fair enough, however, I will continue to follow scripture with regard to pagan practices – passive symbols like Christmas trees are one thing, but “to pray as pagan do (Matt 6)” is a practice may cause another to stumble.
Walking the labyrinth may make a person feel well and good inside, but in my heart of hearts and in the way I interpret scripture, I go not think that God considers it well and good.
Drew, I guess we’ll have to lovingly disagree on this one!
Peace,
Tony
Tony,
I appreciate your passion and conviction, but not sure I understand your reference to Matthew 6 as it pertains to this discussion, nor do I see any references other than to Gentiles and hypocrites.
Peace,
Moose
Now that we’re done talking about labyrinths…can anyone tell me where I can get me some o’ them Christian Tarot cards?
You can get them online here –
http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/christian.shtml
I live in Minneapolis, and there are many shops that sell them in the uptown area.